You’ll Do Gay Marriage Or Else
Mandeville, LA – Exclusive Transcript – “We have Patrick Deneen on the Dude Maker Hotline with us, who is an essayist, professor, a world traveler, and a man of good faith who is trying to defend the faith. My vote is we start with white martyrdom. If there isn’t a divine event to stop it, then we ultimately proceed to red martyrdom, and then the Church kind of has to, is basically cut down to its smallest size and then has to start pretty much all over again, which has happened before, right?” Check out today’s transcript for the rest….
Begin Mike Church Show Transcript
Mike: . . . is Patrick Deneen. He wrote this essay back in June of this year called “The Power Elite.” I think I talked about it back in June on the old station, in the old country. We’ve talked to Patrick about many other topics here on this show. We invited him on today so we can talk a little bit about Advent. Patrick, first of all, welcome back to the program. How are you, my friend?
Patrick Deneen: Thanks, Mike. It’s great to be back. I just got back from down under, Australia, just the other day. It’s nice to be home, but it was also nice to have a little summer.
Mike: That’s right, the Southern Hemisphere is summer, isn’t it?
Deneen: That’s right.
Mike: How is the faith doing down under?
Deneen: I actually had a number of meetings with some key people down there, both in the Church and in the parliament. I’ll tell you, the situation there is very close to Europe as opposed to what we at least have somewhat enjoyed in the United States until fairly recent times, highly secular, definite concerns and worries about religious liberty issues down there. They’re facing many of the same issues we’re facing here. It seems to me it’s a highly secular culture down there now.
Mike: I don’t know if you’ve traveled to the United Kingdom lately, but I’ve made two trips in the last three years. If there’s any sign of reverence in Scotland, I couldn’t detect it.
Deneen: The worry, of course, right now is there seems to be a real convergence among what you call the post-industrialized West to this secular, highly globalized, deeply liberal set of presuppositions that we see converging, not only, of course, Europe, Australia, but also now the United States.
Mike: When I say that I was looking for signs of reverence, one of the things that just has to play on any orthodox Christian or any person that has any rising level of affinity for the Holy Church of Rome, when you go to a city like Edinburgh and stare up at these magnificent – the only I can describe them is just magnificent structures that were built in the 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries with spires that are – the roof of the spire is vaulted at a 10-degree angle. It’s 300 feet above the Miracle Mile street there. It’s a flea market today. There’s no service going on in there.
Deneen: One of the things that struck me, I went to a mass in Melbourne, Australia. It seemed that the beautiful cathedral there was really mostly a tourist attraction at this point.
Mike: We were promised that the gates of hell would not prevail. I’m just wondering, and many of my friends are, just how close to prevailing it’s going to get before they don’t prevail.
Deneen: We also heard from that same source that the world would hate us at it hated him. I think those prophecies are certainly coming true.
Mike: Are you feeling hated?
Deneen: In some circles certainly so.
Mike: You’re still a professor at Notre Dame, right?
Deneen: That’s correct, last I checked.
Mike: What are the conditions like at Notre Dame? I can remember back in 2009, in the spring of 2009, just being aghast and finally taking my Notre Dame hat and throwing it in the garbage can – I never would have conceived of doing this. I’ve been a Notre Dame fan since I was a little boy. It had nothing to do with the fact that I was partially raised Catholic. I just always like the Irish. When they invited Obama to be the commencement speaker at the 2009 graduating ceremony, I never recovered from that. I’m still angry.
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Mike: As Dreher says often, if you think you’re going to escape this, or if you think that the law of merited impossibility will never happen and when it does it won’t happen to us, it actually is happening and it’s going to happen to us. If we don’t prepare ourselves – what is truth? Conformity of the mind to reality. If you don’t conform your mind to the reality of what is actually going on here, and remove yourself from the two-party system that thinks all I’ve got to do is go vote for the right Republicans or “conservatives” and they’re going to fix all this, folks, we are in a theologic struggle. There’s no doubt in my mind that what we are struggling for right now is really – how ironic, the most popular movie of the day today is going to be the Star Wars movie. You’ve got the good guys in white, the bad guys in black. Nobody actually says Lucas’s vision of pantheism, and that’s exactly what it is, but he does have the players correct. There are good guys. There is a right way and a wrong way. Of course, he doesn’t get the rest of it right. How ironic that the struggle will actually draw the most amount of moviegoers without people realizing that they’re actually part of the same struggle.
Deneen: Again, let me just conclude where I began. You asked me about the Satan worshipers and the assault on the Virgin Mary. The appeal of Star Wars, the appeal of Harry Potter, the appeal of what we might see as in many ways somewhat degraded forms of the great story, nevertheless, I think they are basically classic stories of good vs. evil. For a very long time, good is assailed and good seems to lose. That good always seems to be back on its heels. Evil always seems to be ascendant. We’re drawn to these stories because of I think the deepest truth of these stories. This is true of Lord of the Rings. It’s true of C.S. Lewis. It’s true of G.K. Chesterton’s great stories. Good wins out. Good wins out not necessarily because it’s strongest in the conventional sense that we understand strong. It’s not the most powerful. It doesn’t have the most muscles. It doesn’t have the biggest weapons. It’s strong because it has the truth.
I think there’s a temptation in our current society toward a kind of despair or pessimism or hopelessness. Coming back to where we began, we were promised the gates of hell shall not prevail against us. I think as Christians we’re required, it’s part of our faith to be hopeful and to believe in the truth, and to recognize that in the end the truth will set us free in the truest sense of freedom. I guess I just want to, first of all, to wish you a Merry Christmas and your listeners a Merry Christmas, but also remember that we’re celebrating the incarnation of Christ. That should always give us hope and joy.
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Mike: Joseph Pearce said something very similar last time I was afforded the opportunity, the blessing to interview him. A very similar question. He said: Mike, you’re a member, I’m a member of the church militant. There’s a reason why it’s called militant; it’s because it has to be militant against this. We were told it would be required of us to have a militancy against the evil. But then I have another friend, my buddy Steve Cunningham, who I think is probably the world’s greatest living layperson apologetic. He told me: Mike, you’ve just got to learn to enjoy the suck. You can’t let them steal your joy. I have another friend of mine, Lenny Jorns, who is a musician in Memphis. He has a song “Here’s to me kicking your [you-know-what].” He says: Along comes this jerk who’s coming to steal my joy. I actually interviewed Lenny one time and he said: Well, Mike, there are evil people out there that are always trying to steal our joy. We can’t let them steal our joy.
We have the joy of Advent we’re in the middle of. We’re preparing the way for Christmas. Enjoy the suck. Enjoy being part of the Church militant. I like how the priest for the FSSP says it, and perhaps you may have heard him: God’s in charge. He knows what he’s doing. You don’t. Just smile and pray your way through it, brother. Know that you’re doing exactly what you’re supposed to be doing. Merry Christmas and Happy Advent to you, too, my brother.
Deneen: Thank you. You, too, and to all of your listeners.
Mike: What a fantastic little 40 minutes you and I got to spend. We’re going to make this freely available to anyone you’d like to send this out to. We’ll make this an entire preview. I want other people to hear it; they should hear it. Hopefully you and I will continue these conversations. Godspeed, my brother.
End Mike Church Show Transcript