Mandeville, LA – The transcript from the April 28th chatroom discussion.
[Philosophia Perennis Classroom]
Mike Church: Are you there?
Good evening friends, I am trying to get my audio setup configured here at home> I never broadcast from here so it requires several login confirmations and server checks but if I can’t get ‘er done, we’ll go with text chatting for tonight
I am Brother Andre!
I send you an emal just a bit ago.
I wonder if it’s possible to give a very capable student of Brother Francis’ philosophy access to this group. He could be an asset.
good evening, Im casey Wasielewski, had to dig up an old twitter acct to log on
Yes, for sure
I will set him up now
I need an email address for him to complete registration
…in a flash…
OK, I sent Larry login info
Does someone need to have Twitter or FB access to participate?
When David Simpson gets here, we will have a Cajun trinity, Br Andre is from Louisiana, and so are David and I
Let the cajun fest begin. Hello Brother!
OK, we are all here. There are 68 registered users, 71 including Br. Andre & John. I have received dozens and dozens of requests to start this tonight and am glad to see all of you
I had some technical difficulty with my audio server
If it gets resolved I’ am mic’d up and ready if not we’ll just chat
Good evening everyone.
Since we have to type I’ll try and be brief
Good evening all!
First off, Br Andre. please lead us in an our father, we’ll pretend we can hear you. EVeryone read this and we’ll time it out like that.
PATER NOSTER, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur nomen tuum. Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris. Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
English: OUR FATHER, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen.
Pater Noster complete, has everyone at least gotten the Introductions downloaded and maybe begun?
Sorry! I can’t get on the audio.
No worries, it only works in between individuals for now
I listened to logic intro and logic. I started cosmology intro.
I will start by saying thanks to the St Augustine Center for participating here and giving us all the discount code!
You’re welcome! Thanks all for the interest.
Started Minor Logic and have kept on going.
I know, I just want to keep going with logic, too!
I could not D/L the intros… maybe someone might offer help later. I listened to the logic intro 1.5 times on the computer. Will just put the mp3s on my mobile devices and a flash for the car
I started minor logic
This is a wonderful opportunity for us to do something together that will change the way you think and process thought.
EVeryone, we are Blessed to have the attendance of David Simpson and Br. Andre Marie
Glad to be here. Hello, David, KingDude.
They have both completed the course and Br Andre teaches some of Br Francis’ philosophy still. Would you fill the group in on that Brother?
Glad to be hear too…but remember what Br. Francis said: In regards to philosophy, only a fool would pretend to be a teacher.
I am a STUDENT too.
Well, I actually teach grammar and high school, so the philosphy course fits in the background of much of what I do.
However, many of the things I write employ scholastic philosophy.
Excellent-compared to St Thomas I am in grade school
I have listen to the first 8 CD fantastic
I’m glad people are getting things out of it.
Have completed 2 Intros
Brother Francis was very dedicated to the discipline of thought required for this study.
David, you took the course 20 years ago and are still influenced, can you share?
Hold that for a second David
This course will make you think in a completly different way
Brother, Andre, I have noticed that Br. Francis is able to weave the student in and out of the teaching without requiring obnoxious academics
Yes. He had a gift for making the complex very simple.
But can you tell us a bit about how we will be able to use what we learn IN academics?
He thought that the technical vocabulary of philosophy was hard enough without adding unnecessary complexity. He had a rather oriental teaching methond.
Like Our Lord.
There are necessary distinctions to be made.
When you get, for instance, to the use of words like “equivocation”
That’s a tremendous value.
So many times, we’re in an argument and we realize our opponent has fuzzy thinking, but we don’t know that he’s using words “equivocally”
That’s a tremendous help.
It’s the fallacy of the fourth term in logic.
Most University profs today probably don’t know it, but commit it all the time!
EVERY politician does and I think Br Francis gives us enough examples of that to flesh it out.
Listen to an interview of a politician and you’ll find nearly every logical fallacy in the book.
David, do you concur? And why is it important for us to be able to spot the fallacies?
Well, of course I concur.
So David Simpson, you’re mrwonderful?
The value of spotting the falacy is two-fold: One to know if you are on the way to truth or falsity and two
to determine if you should keep listening to that speaker.
Yes, brother, I am Mr. Wonderful…in my mind!
OK. Very humble of you!
Now that is one place where my wife would say that I am not conforming my mind to reality!
There is a good place to begin — the definition of Truth.
Actually, it is just I joke that I will share with you one day.
Yes, definitions are SO important.
Here is where we see Brother Francis at his simple best:
Yes, Truth with a capital T
Truth is the conformity of the mind to reality… to WHAT IS.
That is “Logical truth.”
If we would just insist on defining our terms, most communication would increase in value ten-fold.
“Moral truth” is the conformity of your words to what is on your mind.
“Ontological truth” — the most abstract — is the conformity of a thing to what it ought ot be.
*TO be* that is…
Yes, brother. And the opposite of that is lying. Sometimes we can see better what is meant by looking at its opposite.
In all truth, there is a conformity.
The opposite of ontological truth is a counterfeit.
Suggestion on best way (dictionary) to better understand terms used in course?
Logical truth’s opposite is a fallacy. Moral truth’s opposite is a lie.
And you got ontological truth, David.
Brother, do you have a good suggestion on a dictionary of terms?
Folks, this is where the Course starts to pull you in, in these simple beginnings with simple, as Br Francis would say “child-like terms”
This is the one we use: http://store.catholicism.org/dictionary-of-scholastic-philosophy.html
Is it the incompleteness of the “education” that most of us have received become the symptom of why we have difficulty diccerning these logical fallacies in our daily lives? A failure to pursue truth in academics, life and theology?
Excellent, I will add that to the library list here
Thank You will get it
I are just engineer
Hang on guys, we’ll do questions in a bit
Jas Wil: Yes. Education is in a crisis.
Jas, I would say it was the jettisoning of philosophy as the queen of sciences. In other words, we lost the glue that held all subjects together.
Br Francis mentioned a textbook to use for the Logic course. Is there a recomenation of a textbook?
and Brother Andre
Explain what David just said about the queen of the sciences
THAT is key to beginning for the scales of St Paul to drop from Our eyes
We have to recall that things in the ages of faith were not egalitarian. All was hierarchical.
Including the arts and the sciences.
In Latin, we say, Theologia est regina scientiarum.
Theology is the queen of the sciences.
But, that includes supernatural revelation.
In the mere natural sciences, philosophy is the queen.
Sorry brother, I misspoke…and philosophy was her handmaid.
Yes, and we will all learn to love her command
Philosophy is the “ancilla theologiae”: The handmaid of theology.
Without it, the lower sciences will all want to take over…. that’s why the empirical sciences are so worshipped today. They’ve displaced philosphy as the unitive science.
People think physics or calculus can do this… but they can’t. All they’ll do is bring us more and more abstractions.
And we will all learn why UNITY is important in Cosmology
Yes. Brother Francis begins early with Cosmology to keep us REAL.
Now, Br Andre…
Mike, that is a good point…we may be getting too far ahead of ourselves.
Explain a bit as to WHY Br Francis reversed the order of the courses
from the way the eggheads at Harvard taught them when they did
He was not alone in it, but he was in a small number of people who were afraid that jumping from the rigors of logic to the abstractions of metaphysics (aka ontology) can be dangerous.
It’s too abstract.
Just ordered the dictionary
You may have seen the famous painting from the Vatican’s Raphael rooms…
of Aristotle and Plato.
Let’s give the order too: Logic, Cosmology, Psychology, Ethics, Greek Phil., Modern Phil., Epistemology and Ontology
Oops! That was obnoxious.
It was great!
Brother, go on…what about the painting?
Aristotle is abstract, pointing to the heaven of ideas. Plato (right) is putting his hand down… on the earth.
The books are labeled
To appreciate reality, we must begin with “this thing” before us.
It’s not materialistic. It’s beginning with the created universe we see… just as St. Paul says in Romans that we may discover God.
Like Br Francis story of the Lebanese Pantheist
That fellow was Plato on steriods.
Let’s pause for a moment and think about what we’ve already covered
And add a bit of history
There is a history of scholastic philosophy that was killed by what Br called Scientism
Yes. That’s the worship of the empirical sciences.
This goes to Br. Andre’s point about reality
It’s the spirit of the so-called Enlightenment, which exalted reason at the same time it undermined it.
We’ve all been taught that it is acceptable to think and act on thought that is nearly entirely based on hypotheticals
Yes, and hypotheticals are not real, are they?
Hypothyesis today have become FACT
This is why the limited recall of certain terms will be necessary for all of us to fully benefit
The physicist can make something work on paper…. like 10 parallel dimensions, but that does not make it reality.
No they are not real and cannot be proven but are assumed
It is important to bear in mind Br Francis path
as we review
Fact is not the same as Truth
He, like aristotle, never stopped his pursuit of the Truth
True in fact but modern man is being sold them as truth i.e. global warming
A fact is something literally “made” or done.
Br Francis, taught Physics in Ivy league schools
THIS is important because it shows you the potency (a Br Francis term!) of what the course holds out for us
Yes. And we need to put it into act.
But he heard Fr Feeney’s calling and dropped all that to teach Philosophia Perennis for 40+ years at the St Augustine Center
He called it a Crusade
So that we may think with certitude.
Richard, that is the goal.
Yes. Certitude was a tremendous value for Brother Francis.
On the natural plane.
You can certainly take the course and not join the Crusade but I think that will be rare
It IS a Crusade.
You’ll certainly want to fight it out with those who deny its obvious conclusioins.
Mike, I would like to offer this “order” of the course for those just starting out. I think it will offer a good framework for going through the course.
David, you have been fighting for 20 years
We will study Being, Knowing and Doing.
Knowing is studied in Logic and Epistemology.
Being is studied in Cosmology, Psychology and Ontology.
Doing is studied in Ethics.
And you’ll “get” Being in Minor Logic or at least a good start on it
That is very simple, but very deep.
And Being, Knowing, and Doing is what all the great philosophical schools studied with varying degrees of emphasis.
It’s a reflection of the Trinity.
I would also suggest that you make the course available for review if you commute
It took me 3 listens to some Logic Lectures but I was unlearning the fallacies, this will happen to many I think. David, Brother do you agree?
Brother, would you say it is possible to remain strictly on the natural plane of philosophy without getting into theology?
Mike: Yes. I agree.
One listen really is not enough.
My point is, as Br Francis said, Minor Logic can be a mortification
David. It is possible to study philosophy while staying on the natural plane, but there is something almost contrived about that for us Christians.
Mike: Yes. I would say listen to them once through. Then, go back and listen to them again repetitively.
so don’t get frustrated
Absolutely don’t get frustrated.
Saint Thomas’ philosophy is best found in his Summa Theologiae.
Yes, DON’T get frustrated.
It’s like learning the alphabet.
And you will start to notice the world around you changing
Brother, I know. I just wanted to make that most fundamental distinction between the natural and supernatural planes.
Yes. We must distinguish them.
Actually YOUR mind is changing and being cleared of decades of error
OK, so our goal for this group is to move through at least one lecture per week and review
Yes. The decades of error that come from materialistic (or shallow) education and the goofy media.
Yes, Mike, if I could box up all the stuff I had to unlearn and unload, it would be quite a large room for storage.
This chatroom will be open for all you 24/7 and I hope it becomes a community of sorts
Wow! That’s big.
So, Mike, do we have a modus operandi?
I think its important to have a support apparatus, like you have at The Center
Yes, it is.
Yes, our first assignment is to learn how to pronounce the word “tree” as Br Francis does, you’ll find yourself chuckling at that daily and you’ll realize the joy that man brought into this endeavor
I so enjoy listening to him.
“Happiness comes from the intellect, NOT the will” he said
Yes. He’s Lebanese, so the pronunciation is a little different!
I heard about the”tree” that heard it could survive with out water today.
Yes, he is co-hosting my show some hours
But the Tree has an opinion David, and broke the Order God gave him
The pronounciation being different actually forces you focus on his words. That has become very valuable.
1. Next Tuesday we’ll review Lecture 1 from Minor Logic
Did you all get the written notes?
I’ve got mine!
Quick question, upon ordering I recall seeing pdf handouts were available? Wasn’t able to see a link is there one we should look to for coursework?
I guess that is a no for me.
Yes, the pdf’s are the notes
Jeremy… Could you send an email to email@example.com and ask for the logic notes?
They’ll send them to you.
IF I COULD GO BACK TO THE SUBJECT OF EDUCATION BEING A MESS, GO READ LOST TOOLS OF LEARNING BY DOROTHY SAYERS – SHE ADVOCATE THE TRIVIUMS
David, can you comment on using the notes?
Trivium is where it’s at.
Sure thing, thank you Brother Andre.
I am happy and awed that all of you have already begun the course. I thought I was a weird duck loving this course the way I did. The fact that you love it too is a great joy for me. I hope you complete it and go through it again. Come back next week and offer your input and insight. And let me know if I can help you through any topics.
David…. TheKingDude:David, can you comment on using the notes?
Mike, I would suggest listening first and not worrying about the notes unless you can’t visualize what Br. is saying.
I think we learn a lot through the talk and Brother is always good and circling back to the same topics..
Yes, the Tree of Porferi and the Square of opposition need to be seen
Good idea. The notes are like an aid. It depends if visual learning is your thing or not.
I didn’t look at the notes until I had listened numerous times. It helps, but I learned a lot through the spoken woord.
Class, you’ll be running around looking for Affirmos and Negos in 5 weeks
I didn’t use them until the Square
So we’ll be a flock of weird ducks.
Richard: That’s great.
The square of opposition is tough to visualize, but you don’t have to know the square cold to understand logic.
No, you’ll be an oasis of logical thought in a sand ocean of fallacy
So LOGIC 1 next time, right?
Right on, Mike!
Let Br Francis get everyone up to speed on the first terms of minor logic which are TERMS
you’ll learn to love TERMS
as if the [r] pill wasn’t enough…this is going to be an awesome journey.
Yes, Logic 1
This journey lasts an eternity
Mike, David, Brother and All. Thanks. I’m looking forward to this continuing.
Thank you, Paul
Erik. Sayers is great. So is Laura Berquist. But understanding the classical method of education is a must.
Great job tonight I enjoyed this a lot
Mike/David/Br. Andre – Thanks for your time and introduction.
How will the chat work during the week?
You’re welcome. Good to be here.
We’ll have some audio next week
Thanks very much.
Just want to thank you Mike, David, Brother Andre & of course Brother Francis.
Sure. If you have any questions feel free to ask or forward them to Mike who will send the along.
David and I have been forming confraternities for 6 years, maybe this one is enduring!
Thank You – I am looking forward to the course and communicating with all.
George, you’ll be communicating with “Beings”
Brother, please pass my regards along to Br. Louis.
Great work, Mike, David, & Br. I’ve listened to the introductions and the Logic 1 class and I already feel more at peace. It’s a nice feeling to have.
thank you and see you next week.
OK, David. I’ll pass that along to him.
Excellent! republic, this is just the beginning
“See” you all next week.
Peace! Absolutely the right word. And peace means, “the tranquility of order.”
Thank you all. May God bless us with wisdom!
Thanks for stopping by Br. I will work out some audio communication for us next week
Great, Mike. You’re welcome.
MIke, Isabella said hi just now…i’m being called to her room to play guitar. Have a wonderful week everyone.
The room will not close, stop by and chat whenever you brothers and sisters want
Good. Ciao for now.
Thank you Mike
And since it is inside the privacy tags you can share without fear of busybodies
Good Night, br Andre, thanks agaiN!
Deus te benedicite
Have a good week, Brother.
Wow, what a great start
I will send the archive transcript link out via the mailchimp acct tomorrow
great start, Thanks for organising this Dude
Mike, I can hang for another 20 minutes if anyone wants to chat.
Br Andre said Br Larry will be stopping by too
Yeah, this was awesome. What a group! You have a very smart audience.
They’re rubbing off on me!
so the order is minor logic, cosmology…
David, I wanted circle back to the education question I asked earlier. Could you elaborate on your response?
Yes, minor logic was fascinating for me, I enjoyed it
Yes, minor logic first. Cosmology second.
but it could be a drag if you’re not in the right frame of mood
In education there must be an order too.
Mike: I suppose it’s not possible for someone without a Twitter or FB connection to get into this chatroom?
I have to do something different here because I had to create a twitter account to join and for some reason typing messages is excruciating. maybe I’ll be s,
If we divide all of reality into two planes, natural and supernatural, then we should have a “highest” science for eachorder.
I can set them up at Rumbletalk manually
that would be nice….. im using an old twitter acct. dont have fb or anything else
On the natural plane, philosophy historically was the highest science.
Oh. The friend I told you about, Larry, could not join because he’s not on social media at all.
Send me info via email on who needs login and I will take care of it
Good for him! (on the social media) I’ll get him squared away
What info do you need besides an email address?
No, that’s it, I will have him set up
Now some object to calling “philosophy” science, but it is since “science” is just an “organized body
thank you mike!
It is THE science
That’s right, David.
They’ve limited science to the empirical sciences.
But, philosophy allowed us to integrate all sciences into one coherent whole.
Once we ripped philosophy out, then we lost our ability to fully apprehend reality.
Don’t disparage Mr. Wonderful!
and then follows absolute truth?
Then the sciences, which depend on philosophy for stability, are cut adrift… and the very same scientists who insist that the scientific method is necessary, doubt our ability to know.
I love Brother’s take on the scientism basically being Manicheaism
so I am clear the loss (elimination) of philosophy has excelerated the denial of truth?
Augustine demolished that heresy but it found new druids
Absolutely, Jas Wil.
Yes, Jas, it has
Yes, it sort of made us stop seeing the forest and only seeing the trees!
And we’re not sure what we’re looking at, either.
If you do not have universal Truths you cannot reason
But as you listen to the simple method of the trivuum and the quadrivuum, you will know which educational
That’s key, Br Andre, misidentity
method was correct, the old or the new!
that last line would make a nice tshirt
Take Br Francis critique of relativity
Time and space are not the same thing
and time is purely linear in the material world-one way street
In the spiritual, it does not apply because eternity has no end point
Jas, I hoped that helped. Br. Francis will make it clearer.
Yes, jus lettig the scales start to fall away. Thank you.
Sure. Logic is the first step. We have to check to see if that computer in our skulls is working properly. Logic does just that.
I have already seen the “blue screen of death” once thanks to the intros
Didn’t the Ivy league schools at one time pursue logic?
I mean truth.
The whole course is great. Just keeps getting better and better.
Harvard started as a seminary
Ashley, sure. They just stopped knowing what truth was and started believing in relativism instead.
Jas, have no fear. Your “computer” will be fine!
Yes, it will be
I’ve heard quotes from the earlier presidents of these schools and they sure have changed.
does that have something to do with why the universities were and are always so left leaning….they went the other direction philosophically?
You can see the fallacy of illogic in the “science” of “economics” and “finance”, right David and Mousous Mickeus?
Guys, I have about 3 more minutes. This has been fun. I appreciate your interest and want to encourage your in the study. It will change your life.
yes,… its casey,…sorry for the handle
Well, any organized body of knowledge can be called a “science”, but the value of the truths that you learn
from that science may not be as important as other.
thanks foor your time
thank you both.
3:00 am comes early for me too brothers
good night, and thanks
You are welcome. Thanks Mike. Goodbye philosophers!
thank you all!
This is Brother Andre testing LarryK’s RumbleTalk access.
It seems to be working fine.
Laudetur Iesus Christus!